I JUST got Torq to mix down some recordings I'm doing for a major gig the third week in July. It is ridiculous that a Vista driver set is not out yet, and I think we a paying customers should have a solution.

I know that the people at M-audio are working hard to get a solution, but it just should have been out by now. Vista has been known of for how long?

I need to have this program working within the next week so I can start laying down my breaks and getting feel for it before using it for the first time. Let's put our heads together and try to come up with some alternatives for using it on our computers. Is there ANYWAY someone's found to get around the Vista issue of the program not installing?

Thanks. Love at everyone.

{OP}

Even if you get the software installed the problem is with the drivers for the conectiv.

But Vista isn't supported currently but I'm sure they're working on it. And you can complain all you want, but M-Audio is only one of MANY companies that don't work on Vista currently.

The people here with Vista have opted to roll back to XP - including one of the moderators - TigerSharc.

If you really need to use your computer that badly, consider getting a second hard drive for the computer, put XP on it, and then install Torq and the drivers. On my HP it's 4 screws to swap the drive. On some of the dells and Gateways I have/had it's been as little as 1 screw to pull the cage and in some cases there aren't any screws at all.

You can also repartition your existing computer to dual boot if you don't want to go the extra drive route.

However, complaining about the lack of drivers isn't going to get them any faster. I'm sure M-Audio is working on the drivers and will have them out in the near future. But I wouldn't count on them being out in time to get in the practice you want before that July gig though....

But you never know... It wouldn't be the first time that M-Audio completely surprised me!

is there any other way besides ripping the insides out of my computer?
i mean i just bought a $1200 laptop and i dont plan on unscrewing anything. How hard is it to create or update a new DRIVER?

_______________________________________________________________________

(2) SL-1200 MK5s, Denon DNS300, conective/TORQ
ACER aspire 5100-5840/AMD 64x2
2gb DDR2/160 GB HDD
MS VISTA Home Premium

How Hard?

Very. Especially when the OS changes as much as Vista did from XP. There are dozens of vendors that drop products just because of OS upgrades. I have a GREAT little scanner that works with an HP laser printer. Problem is that HP stopped updating the drivers so it's now useless.

Rest assured that M-Audio will get a driver out soon enough but they have to write the driver and do lots of testing before it will see the light of day.

When I rolled back to XP you have the option to either create a dual boot system and or keep Vista in the partitioned section in your computer. If you can get a copy from the company that made your computer in my case Dell you can dual boot or completely uninstall Vista and run XP. Also if you do this make sure to check your perspective site for your computer and make sure you can get all the drivers to update for a XP OS. Dell has all the drivers for each OS for all their computers.

On a side note, it's not just the driver you have to build, you also have to get around the stupid security in Vista as well.

And that takes time to develop....

Ok...


It may be a lot of work for M-audio and other companies to do, but the problem is...that's what making a computer program is for.

As DJ's and producers...if we had taken that stance when new hardware came out or when a turntable didn't perform exactly the way we wanted it...torq would never have been invented. People went and messed with the hardware, learned it, made music and played with it until it worked..and did it FAST. Yes, its a process to go through to get a new OS driver system working correctly...but it needs to be done. And quickly.


It boils down to M-audio AND all the other companies above KNEW Vista was coming out. No mystery, no surprise. If they knew it would take this long..(and they did...look at the problems people had with trying to upgrade their windows 95 systems to xp systems) they should have been working it out during the beta testing of Vista. I'm sorry...but I was living under a ROCK last year while I was at school and I got a chance to check out Vista on a friends computer when it was being thrown around as a beta. It should have been addressed...end of story.

I'm not getting a new hard drive for my laptop...I shouldn't have to. I shouldn't have to do anything except what I was told I would have to when I brought this. I paid for Torq, I waited for it to come in the mail, I followed instructions. Get the drivers out, M-audio. Please.

Aside from that...there is no other way to do this besides a partition then? I have music files I'm creating for the same gig using fruity loops and I can't risk losing the registry key information by switching systems...plus since I got my laptop with Vista pre-loaded..you guessed it...no install disk.

Are all us Vista users dead in the water until new drivers come out or does someone have another approach not mentioned already?

Yeah, it was no surprise that Vista was coming out, but that doesn't mean a company can completely rewrite and design their drivers/software on a beta version of an OS. The final public release is often very different and it still has to be re-tested and updated based on these changes.

And why are you assuming that the problem is with M-Audio and these other companies? Did you ever stop for just one second and think that maybe Microsoft has problems with their audio implementation in the OS and that's causing problems for other manufacturers? Do you honestly think Microsoft got everything right on their end the first time?




It's not M-Audio's fault you bought Torq for a computer that you know isn't supported. Professional industries are always slow to transition to these new systems because they are full of bugs. I'm just sick of people buying the latest and greatest and then getting upset when stuff doesn't work. The same thing is going to happen when Leopard comes out.

Anyhow, if you have Vista, you're dead in the water. The only option would be to run it on XP. That sucks you didn't get an install disc, but I bet if you contact the manufacturer, they should probably be able to send you one.

Also, have you seen how many products M-Audio has on their website? Who's to say that Torq is their top priority for Vista compatibility. Since the Professional Industry is slower to upgrade, maybe that's why the Fast Track and Session were the first to be Vista compatible?

...I'm well aware that there is a difference between a beta and a final verision, thus it is called a beta. The reason why I said that is not to parade that I know everything about computers or that the drivers should be out based solely on the beta testing. I said that because the exposure was there for Vista. Now that there has been a full release, there should be updates for it. That's what I'm driving at. You're right, the beta was very different from the final product...but even though that is the case Vista did not just come out yesterday. We're in the seventh month of it being released. If this had happened a week ago, and Vista had just hit the shelves, then I would be wrong to bring the matter to the forefront this soon. But what I'm saying is..given the business that M-audio is in, they have to account for there being these issues and getting on it quick.

If you're DJing at a spot that keeps in synch with the latest house and breaks records that come out, the heads and management are not going to be very happy with you if you're 3, 4 , 5 months behind. I by no means think that you should only play new records, classics are a staple in any collection, but the fact of the matter is...some spots...quite a few them, require you to be on top of your game with WHAT'S OUT. If you have to play out with what's current, people are not going to care whether or not you couldn't get to the store last week. If they want that record and you don't have it, that's your ass..

M-audio is in a similar position being that they make software/hardware that's on the fringe of technology within the music production/djing market. They're making software that makes keeping on top of the ever growing music world a snap. Kudos. But...when your software isn't going to support the hardware and the innovation...it makes it worthless. It needs to be updated. Straight up, no ice.

I'm not assuming that the problem is with M-audio. I'm holding them to what they claim in their driver update section. It says they've been working with the people at Microsoft to get the problems hacked out. And I know that takes time, but if there are audio implementation problems, security to work around, and all other unaccounted for problems...that needs to be handled quickly with the teamwork M-audio states they are implementing with Microsoft to handle the problem.

I'm well aware of the fact the Microsoft doesn't get everything right the first time. That's clear with this OS release, lol. But, Microsoft didn't make Torq and they didn't make Itunes, two programs that have had abysmal support for Vista thus far. Yes, I'm hard on companies because they're in business to be the best. Torq stands to do that with DJing and production and as a company that wants to tap into this culture, they need quick on the rebound concerning these issues.


I'm not really sure what Leopard is, and I hope it works well when it comes out for who ever uses it. And be sick of people buying the latest and greatest and them having problems. I didn't buy this laptop because it was the top of the line, xyz. Its pretty basic. And I brought it so I'd have a portable digital djing rig to accompany my turntables. Your frustration with people who want to complain after they buy the newest thing they can get their hands on is not the issue here. The issue here is, the world is going to upgrade eventually. We had to go through it with XP and we had to go through it with all other things before that. As a company in this business just as a DJ in his or her business...you have to play to the people that support you as a business..and you, I and everyone in these forums trying to give feed back are that support.


I mean, Fast Track and Session were first, and they have people that use them that need it done fast too, I understand that. But, just because I'm not in that category doesn't mean I'm not a top priority. We are ALL top priority because we spent our money on a product from this company. That's unfortunate for M-audio, but its a responsibility they bear. Even if I didn't have other programs and information to worry about for my laptop, there is no way that anyone should have to try to work around this conflict by putting more of their scarce funds into a hard drive for a laptop. I'm not coming down on M-audio any hard than Apple or Microsoft. Vista is too high, itunes took WAY too long to release a Vista update, and M-audio falls into the same boat. Let's hope it comes out soon for the people who brought laptops with Vista because they needed a new laptop..not a shiny new toy.

Let's see...

1. Vista isn't supported with Torq (yet) and it's well known.

2. You bought a new laptop with Vista anyway.

3. You're now complaining that M-Audio (and Avid) doesn't redirect all it's resources into the SynchroScience division just to fix YOUR problem.

4. You try to compare 'staying on top of your game' with current music to current hardware - but it's a failed analogy. The profesional music industry doesn't jump to latest and greatest computer hardware right away - they wait for it to be stable so they can use it without having to worry about stability.

5. M-Audio, as a division of Avid, has a lot of products they need to upgrade. Among these are consumer products (like the Mixlab) and professional level products like Pro Tools and Pro-Tools M-Powered. They have hundreds products and they should stop everything on these other products just to fix Torq - which represents a relatively small portion of their company product line.

6. If Vista is so great why did Dell start offering XP on it's home computers again? That's something they have NEVER done in the past.

7. Even the beta versions of the software can appear to work but the final release could be completely different. We saw that recently with the Mac OS X 10.4.9 update. Beta worked just fine. Final release broke damn near ever audio application on the market... including APPLE'S OWN PRODUCT LINE! Hmmmm... if they didn't even tell their own company that the code was changing what makes you think that a company like Microsoft is going to do anything about telling completely different companies about the changes. They'll tell just enough people to get them to start working on it but they want everyone to lag behind so they have the only products that work on their 'new' OS.

8. There are a number of ways to resolve the Vista problem - but all of them involve installing XP at this time.

9. The product will be updated - of that we're sure. However, keep in mind that other products are just now starting to provide Vista compatibility so this isn't anything new to the pro audio industry.

10. And on a side note, Vista hasn't been out for 7 months - the official release date was Jan 30 IIRC... Which means with it being mid-June it's only been out for just over 4 months.

Let's just tell it like it is... you bought a new laptop hoping to use Torq on it only it came with Vista. You don't want to install or buy XP because you want it to work the way it is. You'd rather complain about somthing that is pretty clear if you checked the boards or the knoweldgebase on the product than wait like the rest of us for the release to come in due time. It's not their first upgrade for an OS... they'll get to it as quickly as they can. In the meantime, I'm eager to see an Xponent in person and get to using it on a regular basis.

Now let me take my laptop that I bought 2 weeks before it would qualify for a free upgrade to Vista and go practice and prepare for the gigs I have coming up....

GAWD

No comment

Okay so lets straighten this out...

1) Vista isn't supported with Torq yet and its well known

2) You brought a new laptop with Vista anyway...

Stop.

You were so concerned about your mail order ranting skills that you assumed things that aren't true. I'm not complaining because I found out about Torq and just brought a laptop with Vista on it anyway. Instead of trying to make someone look like an ass, you'd do well to chill out and bring the issue to the table first to see what's really good. If I had done that, yes I'd get what I deserve in not having an OS that supports me, but I got this laptop before I got Torq because Torq is not the only thing I'd be using on this system. The reason I raised the issue and I am irritated is, since people moved to a new OS and are selling that in stores its frustrating to try to work around issues like this.

3) You're complaining that M-Audio (and Avid) doesn't redirect all its resources into the SynchroScience division just to fix YOUR problem.

Again, concerned about those ten easy step rants. I distinctly said that we are ALL a priority because we brought the product from M-Audio. Thus I'm not complaining only considering my problem , I'm also voicing something someone else has an issue with. DJ YuNgWuN apparently shares a similar problem, only I didn't spend 1,200 on a new laptop..its worse from him having spent that much and not have the support he needs for the hard/software he brought. I don't think that he just went to the store one day and said "Oh, Torq won't work on Vista, I'll buy it anyway". This is something we're dealing with after the fact here. Had I known that about Torq before hand, I still would have gotten it, but all I'm saying is that its frustrating. Its frustrating when other people have moved on and stores are selling laptops with Vista on it that meets the price range of myself and others that want to have a computer that Microsoft chooses to support during its life cycle.


It appears that the only failure in analogy was your understanding of what it was used for. The pro music industry doesn't just jump into some new hardware right away, you're correct. But I didn't say that. What I said was, M-audio has entered a market where their software and hardware is going to have respond to changes in the music industry because its on the edge and it has to stay current. At no point did I say I wanted anyone to use anything that wasn't stable. I just said as people that brought a product and invested in something, we are entitled to having it work correctly and if it does not it needs to be addressed quickly. I know the people at M-audio are working on it, but I'm only saying that if for example, someone like Revolution brought Vista for his other sound programs and then wanted to get Torq, he'd be stuck and have an issue because his other programs work fine with Vista but Torq would be keeping him from rounding out his rig. That's my point. I've already accounted for Torq not working because of issues that that might come up even after I would install it on my computer successfully. I've worked around that with my regular turntables, but I just want to take advantage of the new ground Torq broke.

5) Once again you assume that I don't know that M-audio has their hands full, but just because I didn't get Pro Tools or Session doesn't mean that I didn't put money in M-audio's pocket. A few people get me wrong when I come down on M-audio and think I'm saying that about them only. I was irritated at Apple for the longest time because they didn't have an itunes solution for the vista system when winamp, realplayer, firefox, virtual dj, fruity loops were all ready go without this kind of wait. Mozilla is a company that has multiple products and they bring in over 50 million a year. M-audio probably brings in more...hell give me the stats I'll keep them in mind if I can ever buy into their stock, but my point here is not how much money they make, but to say that even though other companies had responsibilities to other products they produce, they still got the job done. Plus, to add insult to injury...Firefox is free. So, don't sit there and tell people that have a problem with this that they are in error because we have demands having brought m-audio's revolutionary system.

6) I never said Vista is so great. Once AGAIN you're jumping into stuff I clearly didn't write because you're ranting instead of addressing the issue here. Yes, they (Microsoft) haven't done returns of this nature in the past and that's ridiculous, but I'm not just holding M-audio to this. That's why I put what I did in my last post. Vista is way too expensive and Microsoft should be prosecuted for MURDER as a company because of what they claim is worth that money with these kinds of problems, LOL. This is ridiculous, and it goes both ways, but again, this is a burden that M-audio chose to bear when they created something as crucial as Torq.

8. And I appreciate you explaining the ways that you can do it and get Torq working, but its unrealistic to expect someone to just buy another hard drive to support one product, that's all I'm saying here. We're not made of money and when you're trying to invest in something as expensive as djing and music production....that tab for extra materials can get quite high.

9. Vista hasn't been out 7 months? My mistake. I was misinformed. I stand corrected. But the greater point here is that companies that offer free programs that are dedicated to multiple projects have gotten the job done in the time frame that's been allotted to them and I'd appreciate it if M-audio were able to do the same.

Yeah, let's tell it like it is. You enjoy trying to flame someone instead of paying attention to all of what they have to say and thus you flame yourself. I don't want to install XP because I want it to work, period. I've read about what it takes to do dual partitions and total wipes to reload on XP. First of all, the dual partition requires an install disk, which because my 'top came with Vista preloaded, I don't have. Even if I had that, shrinking the partition is extremely risky, which in effect could leave me without a computer to do anything on PERIOD. Lastly, XP has problems working on some systems because they were optimized to work with Vista...and I fall into that category because I have Vista. I did check the knowledge base of the product when I found out about Torq and actually got serious about buying it, but I did not just buy the laptop at the same time. I already had it, so its pretty worthless to say that not knowing anything about what I did before the issue came up for me. I am waiting in due time, I'm just pointing out that M-audio and some other companies dropped the ball, its frustrating, and I wanted to get some other opinions from people who know more about computers than me to see what I could do to work around it.

I got that, you had a temper tantrum when I raised the issue, I said my piece and it got resolved.

Have a splendid day.

If your not complaining, you would not have made so many post.

By the way, there is a Feature Wishlist section in the forum. Take a look, I am sure you will find something on Windows Vista.

Enjoy your beautiful day.

Let me address this in multiple parts - I almost never rant. I respond to ludacris accusations and innuendo made by people who don't work in the IT industry or understand it. These same people don't understand the upgrade cycle for pro audio tools either in most cases. But I've spent a lot of time trying to EDUCATE people on the industry about issues like this and how to avoid them. The fact that I used to be a professional technical educator and have worked in the IT industry for about 20 years, and have a number of years working with pro audio equipment gives me a unique perspective that most people don't have the chance to view the issues from.

I will concede that working around issues like this IS frustrating. That's the entire point of my making the recommendations I did. There are work arounds but they ALL involve installing a new OS for the software to work.

If I misunderstood the order of events you're experiencing I apoligize - however, the order of events I described is FAR more common. This is why I responded with that as an example.





Buying a computer with XP just means you'd have to upgrade the OS at some point in the future. Not that the life of your computer is lessened. But people often DO buy products without even considering compatibility and then want to hold a company that was clear about it's standing for months accountable is just plain crazy talk.

You buy a car that runs on diesel but then complain because there aren't any diesel gas stations between work and home for you. They're building one that will be available in a few months but you want to complain because it doesn't work NOW unless you jump through some other hoops to make it all work. No matter the order of events that IS what's happening.




Ok, Torq and the other SynchroScience products are closer to the bleeding edge of technology. And they are working to update to the new OS. But what you fail to grasp is that there is now only 1, yes 1, time control system that works on Vista and it can't be used with ASIO, WDM, Core Audio. That's right it's a single purpose box that can only be used with thier software. Yes, we want drivers to support the latest and greatest OS but it takes TIME. And if everyone had their drivers out but M-Audio I'd be right there along with you - but they don't.





Ahhh.... so the one product you choose to highlist is uh... FREE and has only been out for Vista for uh, 2 weeks? Ouch. Give the open source code base to Firefox they have a HUGE group of developers working on that project at no cost. Closed source development takes longer - much longer because of the economies of scale and something known as the 'Mythical Man-Month'. It's a great book that discusses software engineering and economies of scale vs. production time. Some of the others might be working with Vista....

But take a look here:
http://kb.wisc.edu/helpdesk/page.php?id=5175

There's a LOT more applications that DON'T work with Vista than do.




Crucial? If it didn't work at all I'd say it was a problem. The problem is that it DOES work with an operating system that's still officially supported by Microsoft and will be until April of 2009. I bet they have a Vista version LONG before that date arrives.




Buying a hard drive is ONE solution to get it to work. Partitioning is another for dual boot. Move critical data to an external hard drive or use g: drive (it uses Gmail as a file storage space) to handle the paritioning process and protect yoru data in the process.





Free products are generally open source. They have tens of thousands of people working on those products free of charge. The amount of man and computing power they can throw at a project is unmatched by nearly every commercial entity. And when you consider that most of the open source programmers aren't newcomers - they're people with many years of experience and at the top of their game it only goes to show the difference between a fully supported open source project vs. a closed source one. I'm not suggesting that M-Audio open the source for Torq - I AM suggesting that commercial companies have greater limitations than open source projects - especially when popular.



Flame myself? Not hardly. My intent wasn't to flame you either. It's to point out the fallacy of the logic and the unrealistic expectations that were being made. Vista compatible versions of applications are just now starting to show up... M-Audio will be along soon enough.

As for your computer problems - I've not see a computer yet that didn't come with recovery disks, orginal install discs, or give you the option to make your own recovery disks. And if they didn't you can usually order them at little or no charge from the manufacturer.

The issue is there ARE solutions but rather than consider them you want to complain.... and hold M-Audio accountable for a problem that isn't their fault. The same thing happened with the OS X 10.4.9 update breaking audio applications.

Rather than ask Microsoft why they're out to make it so hard to write device drivers for Vista everyone yells at the company's that are putting out products wanting to now why they don't have versions of the drivers for Vista.


I guess in the end you and will just have to agree to disagree. I think the ball dropping is happening by Microsoft - NOT M-Audio. You think otherwise...

You also think my intent is to flame you... instead it's meant as a foray into trying to get you to consider doing something other than trying to pretend you're sk80soarus and provide nothing but negative comments all the time.

Hey man...listen..

I'm not here to just post negative comments. If I was, then I would not constantly refer to Torq as the juggernaut it is and can be once people really delve into what its capable of. Yes, I will admit that if someone can work open source, that will give them far more options than someone that is working closed source...given the man power example. But, unfortunately because M-Audio has stepped up to the plate with their technology and the potential that comes with it, they have to make it work without that luxury if they can't have it.

As far as my laptop and getting that OS upgrade...I brought this having talked to quite a few people that have to work with laptops and deal with the sheer madness of having to upgrade them. More often than not when a new OS comes out people have told me that it usually means that the laptop is finished by the time they put it to the test. On top of that, I've seen people try to use new OS on laptops that had older OS's on them and they ended up with a computer that could not even begin to handle what I'm going to put Torq to use doing.

When I came out on that last post, all I wanted to get you and whoever else taking this the wrong way to understand that M-audio is going to be held responsible by people like me because I've invested in them. Do I feel the same about Microsoft? YES. This computer I've been working on has been working rather well ( knock on wood) and thus I'm not in their throats trying to find out what problems need to be solved because my x-dollars have been spent.

I'm not trying to debate ANYONE in the IT industry to try to know more...I made that clear when I spoke last. I also made it very clear that I came here for additional knowledge I didn't have...and I got that. I'm only basing the irritation on what other programs I got working with Vista out of the box that made the transition just fine or got updated quick quick. Mozilla has more man power that's free, okay. But there were a few programs that I had that made the transition very well to Vista that involved sound that worked from day one. At the end of the day we all just want our stuff to work and not have to put hundreds more in when we're already breaking our wallets getting new records and such, lol.

If there was no intent to flame, its Kool in the Gang. I understand you don't like it when someone unknowingly holds a person to blame that cannot do any better. I don't like that either, but I also recognize what it takes to be in/stay in business because I have started one and unfortunately I'm going to have to be responsible for any gap between myself and someone that buys my music, mixes, etc. I'm encouraging of Torq. I think it will stand to be a Final Scratch, Serato, and Virtual Vinyl KILLER. (That's what I meant by crucial in the last post by the way, as in its prowess and innovative features....not as in like, I'll die without it) but I just want it to not be 1) Back burner 2) Take so long to fix.

If I were to make the analogy that you made about the car, I'd have to say what happened to me is more like going to all the gas stations in the area near my house and having, for some reason, normal gas from those stations working in my car... except the one that's right near my house. If all the other ones do, but the very closest one doesn't allow me to use the gas I brought at the other stations, that would be extremely strange and frustrating. That's my point...because with the other programs except Torq working on my comp, that's what I'm faced with.

That's cool about explaining that time control system. You raise a good point. And I know M-audio needs time, but for those people who are in my position that now have Vista and no other options that will guarantee that our work won't get destroyed..it puts us in a hard place.

I don't know what's really good with the whole book link. It may have only worked for a few people for 2 weeks...but I've had this computer FAR longer and its worked fine for me. When I'm browsing, its all I use..and if I had to choose between buying it and Microsoft's internet explorer I'd buy it hands down because of that fast response time I was on the other end of. It may be giving other Vista users but I'm only going on personal experience for me.

My registry data working with XP after going through the partition was my issue. I have to continue working with these files..and if one thing goes wrong and I can't...then I'm worse off than I was without torq. That's why I can't do that. That's why the solutions available to me from what was discussed won't help me. Money on a new drive is not an option, plus the partition is too risky for me to try and have not work correctly.

Yes, I think we should demand support from Microsoft to the third party. I agree wholeheartedly. We can agree to disagree about how M-audio goes about handling that. But what I won't is play ball on this fallacy of logic that you claim. Yes, open source gives you more options, but the point here is I've been working with software that's been performing. My logic isn't falling down around the ankles of half-assed testimonials. I'm just working with some products that work really well given what's happened with the Vista debacle and I want M-audio to come through so I can start using a product with limitless possibilities.

sk80soarus? I don't even know what the hell that is...lol. I guarantee I'm not trying to be something I'm not...and once again...if you take a look at the posts I gave props where credit isn't even accepted. In other words, if I was as negative as you claim, I'd be in here on some name calling, and using the diverse array of possibilities that stem from the f-word. I didn't do that. I came in here, asked for help, let people know that I'm excited about using a product that's ahead of its time....but I noticed its imperfections which would have been there had I not opened my mouth held responsible the companies that make products for all of us.

Be easy,

{OP}